| 09-16 23:17 | | This is about 20-25 moves longer than can reasonably be called “joseki”. If it’s a specific game, that should be cited at the end of the path (and even then it should be much shorter). |
| 07-27 14:54 | | What is the source saying that's a bad move? What is the reason? |
| 07-19 02:39 | | Why is this labeled bad if the only followup is “white collapses”? |
| 07-12 20:25 | | Can this be deleted? |
| 07-04 07:35 | | Idk but black get more point s? |
| 06-25 20:24 | | Black's area is a little too long. |
| 06-19 09:52 | | White clamps at l18 to secure the territory and break into the center while leaving black weak on the side |
| 05-21 18:31 | | white gets blighted. good for black. |
| 05-13 03:13 | | I can't see the comments... |
| 04-01 14:45 | | Why is this a mistake? |
| 03-20 10:06 | | Why Black doesn't R19 instead? White has to answer, no? |
| 03-12 07:58 | | How is this good enough for w? |
| 03-09 20:10 | | White is okay. |
| 03-08 16:37 | | ez win 6.5 komi |
| 03-03 22:43 | | not finished |
| 01-24 02:55 | | Why aren't Q17 and R16 equivalent? |
| 01-01 11:38 | | |
| 12-24 12:41 | | test |
| 12-15 06:32 | | As an example of when this might be a move: http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/72386/(I think 'bad move' is generally saved for moves that don't make sense even in special cases) |
| 12-14 23:05 | | ?? ??? ???? |
| 11-21 03:47 | | Why is this bad? |
| 10-31 12:14 | | I don't really understand the refutation of 2 - the resulting position looks reasonably good to me for black - regaining the corner and maintaining some influence at the top, in exchange for white ponuki |
| 10-31 12:12 | | why not P12 rather than B at the end for black? seems to be a valid option if pushing down to the right, no? |
| 10-29 03:10 | | White can prevent the killing descent by playing there instead, this doesn't stop black. |
| 10-29 03:06 | | Preventing the bomber is very important! |
| 09-09 12:33 | | |
| 08-02 20:45 | | Surprising to see this sequence labeled as a mistake for black. Yilun Yang claims this is a good result for black given they have strengthened their corner shape and white is still not locally alive. |
| 07-22 16:17 | | alert(1) |
| 07-10 04:57 | | I’m confused here – b R15 is supposedly the new preferred move, and after that w Q18 is “good” (not “ideal”). And yet, the result is good for white? At least one of those three is wrong. |
| 06-19 13:12 | | Suiii!!!!!!!! |
| 06-02 03:30 | | If the players agree to continue the game... |
| 05-15 02:37 | | If this is a trick move, how does black fall for the trick? Seems like all the variations shown are good for black and easy for black to find. |
| 05-12 22:55 | | This goes for so long... |
| 05-12 12:56 | | ...draw? |
| 05-02 15:25 | | I agree it's a little frustrating |
| 04-27 17:26 | | Well, to a board Situation containing two of these joseki facing each other Go Seigen said black already won. |
| 04-27 14:49 | | I have not found a professional game in which this move was played. |
| 04-26 17:39 | | Pluspy is a strong go player on Reddit (5dan amateur) and he says this move isn't bad: https://redd.it/12trkbp |
| 04-17 06:13 | | Easy, black blocks on either side, black can also keima from the stone. |
| 04-14 07:14 | | It's a 0.3 point mistake according to KataGo, with a stone on the 4-4 point in the other 3 corners.So it's "fine" but suboptimal unless sente is somehow very unimportant |
| 04-13 13:47 | | I don't know why this white move counts this good. After P17, Q18, P18, R18 White can R13 and press second line if the Cut at p16 is no problem or protect the cut with something like N16 or O16 and almost build an eye. Nothing you would like to play. |
| 03-16 04:03 | | what's the source for this? This looks like wrong direction of play... |
| 03-15 22:13 | | this should be left as end-game, continuing now increases black's thickness for very few points for white. |
| 03-15 22:08 | | does black not need a move here? Feels like black's position has lots of aji to me. |
| 03-15 18:55 | | should not be labelled as ideal moves for white is this is gote and results in good for black... |
| 03-15 18:51 | | continuations viewable from similar position: https://josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfpfpgofqdqgqephpcod |
| 03-15 18:48 | | should be labelled as fighting pattern here |
| 03-15 18:47 | | 2 results in a position that is worse than 3 for B, and 2 is labelled as "good for white" while end result of 3 is not. Colors seem incorrect; if anything, 3 should be ideal and 2 should perhaps be good, perhaps be incorrect--not sure I see any situation where 2 is superior to 3. |
| 03-15 18:44 | | this is "good for black" I believe, not labelled in description. |
| 03-15 18:40 | | this move results in a "good for white" result, so it should be labelled "good" (at best) not "ideal" |
| 03-15 18:40 | | 2 results in a "good for white" result, so it should be labelled "good" (at best) not "ideal" |
| 03-15 18:27 | | (Weird--B just changed, could have swore it said B, but now it says "current"... was there some odd DB thing, or did I just trip myself out?) |
| 03-15 18:26 | | In description, B is missing? Do they mean 1? Do they mean the played move S14? |
| 03-14 21:04 | | This should not be a red 'bad move' since it leads you directly to a move that is considered an optimal joseki |
| 03-14 20:51 | | The commentary says this is always bad for white, yet it is labelled "good move..." |
| 03-14 03:07 | | click "pass" to see variations after tenuki |
| 02-28 14:11 | | What's the ladder mentioned? |
| 02-12 17:07 | | Why is this a bad move? If black wins the ko, it is good for black. |
| 01-28 10:33 | | The example path is wrong (it is whites next move but black plays) |
| 01-28 10:30 | | The continuation path is wrong |
| 01-22 09:33 | | ?? |
| 01-04 13:23 | | lol at josekipedia being edited by anyone. lmaoing at this quality control fam |
| 01-02 23:48 | | After P-17, q-18. If w s-18, then b p-18, w o-18, b n-18 connects out. |
| 12-23 03:02 | | This looks very good for black to me... |
| 12-18 04:21 | | why is this a mistake? |
| 12-01 12:32 | | white doesn't want to keep pushing on the second line |
| 11-24 21:03 | | :( |
| 11-24 13:40 | | QUESTION 2!!!!!!!!! |
| 11-24 13:38 | | WHAT??? |
| 11-24 13:02 | | Why is [O17] considered bad here? |
| 11-07 08:20 | | Lol |
| 11-03 23:23 | | This is very similar to https://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfncqdqcrcqerdpereqbpf except without the A/B exchange. So I guess black might prefer this if they're planning to descend at R18 and prefer to save A/B instead of the peep at S13 for later? |
| 11-03 12:16 | | why is everything a mistake?? |
| 10-17 20:27 | | alert(1) |
| 10-16 00:04 | | Not in all variations. And even Gote might be not bad in any case. |
| 10-16 00:01 | | I changed the move Q17 to good and not to best.I would not say Q17 is absolutely bad here but it seems a bit slack and gifting for white.I mean black plays an 2 stone wall facing his one stone and after that he has to make a 2 space extension with L17 so that he can not be attacked.Thats why i think its slack.White would kakari here by ocassion. In general to develop the side the kakari stone is facing to(for example if white already played a hoshi or something in the lower rght(maybe in ni ren sei)) or to invade a black position by forcibly threatening blacks hoshi to get a stronger shape after some exchanges eventually even planning to attack adjectend black groups.White ends with a pretty strong shape which even has an eye and all of this in Sente. No matter in which occasion white has to kakari it totaly plays in his hands.Thats why i think its gifting for white.Not to mention that black played the corner here first and the most he achieves is a equal result in Gote. If you play first there should at least be something for you. |
| 10-15 09:58 | | It's fine according to KataGo |
| 10-13 20:30 | | Edited description to add an "A" marker. |
| 10-06 12:55 | | so is this good or isnt it? i'd rather not get random unsourced advice from anonymous people |
| 09-29 18:26 | | 2 is better? |
| 08-31 02:29 | | WHERE IS THE ACTIVITYYYYY |
| 08-26 16:42 | | Looks like 1 & 2 are marked "good move" just not "ideal move" |
| 08-21 07:02 | | If you check Waltheri's you'll see this move is still being played. |
| 08-03 16:36 | | I am searching a sequence played in high chinese fuseki |
| 07-08 20:01 | | Сan we move p16? |
| 07-08 07:38 | | So little territory got white but black got the bid wall |
| 07-05 14:43 | | Why 4 is a bad move if it is a joseki? Where is a refutation then? |
| 07-02 23:35 | | If white has made joseki moves thus far in this variation and black has been the one to make mistakes, why has white collapsed? |
| 06-22 08:59 | | why are 1 & 2 bad? They are the most common moves on ps waltheri. |
| 06-06 15:19 | | because of symmetry we look at Q16 instead |
| 05-13 19:15 | | привет вÑем |
| 05-09 12:24 | | fdghjhghjklllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm |
| 05-09 12:24 | | jjhujgu |
| 04-27 04:13 | | yeah AI says it's fine |
| 04-27 04:12 | | AI says that omitting the atari can be fine, and that black's best answer is connecting |
| 04-14 18:33 | | Is there a reason why this variation is in here? |
| 04-08 03:51 | | i wish pro players would continue updating this :( many moves that say "ideal" have actually been eliminated in the past few years because it was added such a long time ago... |
| 04-08 03:48 | | can anyone please add more variations that aren't necessarily joseki but are good moves? |
| 03-13 14:08 | |