07-19 02:39Why is this labeled bad if the only followup is “white collapses”?
07-12 20:25Can this be deleted?
07-04 07:35Idk but black get more point s?
06-25 20:24Black's area is a little too long.
06-19 09:52White clamps at l18 to secure the territory and break into the center while leaving black weak on the side
05-21 18:31white gets blighted. good for black.
05-13 03:13I can't see the comments...
04-01 14:45Why is this a mistake?
03-20 10:06Why Black doesn't R19 instead? White has to answer, no?
03-12 07:58How is this good enough for w?
03-09 20:10White is okay.
03-08 16:37ez win 6.5 komi
03-03 22:43not finished
01-24 02:55Why aren't Q17 and R16 equivalent?
01-01 11:38
12-24 12:41test
12-15 06:32As an example of when this might be a move: http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/72386/(I think 'bad move' is generally saved for moves that don't make sense even in special cases)
12-14 23:05?? ??? ????
11-21 03:47Why is this bad?
10-31 12:14I don't really understand the refutation of 2 - the resulting position looks reasonably good to me for black - regaining the corner and maintaining some influence at the top, in exchange for white ponuki
10-31 12:12why not P12 rather than B at the end for black? seems to be a valid option if pushing down to the right, no?
10-29 03:10White can prevent the killing descent by playing there instead, this doesn't stop black.
10-29 03:06Preventing the bomber is very important!
09-09 12:33
08-02 20:45Surprising to see this sequence labeled as a mistake for black. Yilun Yang claims this is a good result for black given they have strengthened their corner shape and white is still not locally alive.
07-22 16:17alert(1)
07-10 04:57I’m confused here – b R15 is supposedly the new preferred move, and after that w Q18 is “good” (not “ideal”). And yet, the result is good for white? At least one of those three is wrong.
06-19 13:12Suiii!!!!!!!!
06-02 03:30If the players agree to continue the game...
05-15 02:37If this is a trick move, how does black fall for the trick? Seems like all the variations shown are good for black and easy for black to find.
05-12 22:55This goes for so long...
05-12 12:56...draw?
05-02 15:25I agree it's a little frustrating
04-27 17:26Well, to a board Situation containing two of these joseki facing each other Go Seigen said black already won.
04-27 14:49I have not found a professional game in which this move was played.
04-26 17:39Pluspy is a strong go player on Reddit (5dan amateur) and he says this move isn't bad: https://redd.it/12trkbp
04-17 06:13Easy, black blocks on either side, black can also keima from the stone.
04-14 07:14It's a 0.3 point mistake according to KataGo, with a stone on the 4-4 point in the other 3 corners.So it's "fine" but suboptimal unless sente is somehow very unimportant
04-13 13:47I don't know why this white move counts this good. After P17, Q18, P18, R18 White can R13 and press second line if the Cut at p16 is no problem or protect the cut with something like N16 or O16 and almost build an eye. Nothing you would like to play.
03-16 04:03what's the source for this? This looks like wrong direction of play...
03-15 22:13this should be left as end-game, continuing now increases black's thickness for very few points for white.
03-15 22:08does black not need a move here? Feels like black's position has lots of aji to me.
03-15 18:55should not be labelled as ideal moves for white is this is gote and results in good for black...
03-15 18:51continuations viewable from similar position: https://josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfpfpgofqdqgqephpcod
03-15 18:48should be labelled as fighting pattern here
03-15 18:472 results in a position that is worse than 3 for B, and 2 is labelled as "good for white" while end result of 3 is not. Colors seem incorrect; if anything, 3 should be ideal and 2 should perhaps be good, perhaps be incorrect--not sure I see any situation where 2 is superior to 3.
03-15 18:44this is "good for black" I believe, not labelled in description.
03-15 18:40this move results in a "good for white" result, so it should be labelled "good" (at best) not "ideal"
03-15 18:402 results in a "good for white" result, so it should be labelled "good" (at best) not "ideal"
03-15 18:27(Weird--B just changed, could have swore it said B, but now it says "current"... was there some odd DB thing, or did I just trip myself out?)
03-15 18:26In description, B is missing? Do they mean 1? Do they mean the played move S14?
03-14 21:04This should not be a red 'bad move' since it leads you directly to a move that is considered an optimal joseki
03-14 20:51The commentary says this is always bad for white, yet it is labelled "good move..."
03-14 03:07click "pass" to see variations after tenuki
02-28 14:11What's the ladder mentioned?
02-12 17:07Why is this a bad move? If black wins the ko, it is good for black.
01-28 10:33The example path is wrong (it is whites next move but black plays)
01-28 10:30The continuation path is wrong
01-22 09:33??
01-04 13:23lol at josekipedia being edited by anyone. lmaoing at this quality control fam
01-02 23:48After P-17, q-18. If w s-18, then b p-18, w o-18, b n-18 connects out.
12-23 03:02This looks very good for black to me...
12-18 04:21why is this a mistake?
12-01 12:32white doesn't want to keep pushing on the second line
11-24 21:03:(
11-24 13:40QUESTION 2!!!!!!!!!
11-24 13:38WHAT???
11-24 13:02Why is [O17] considered bad here?
11-07 08:20Lol
11-03 23:23This is very similar to https://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfncqdqcrcqerdpereqbpf except without the A/B exchange. So I guess black might prefer this if they're planning to descend at R18 and prefer to save A/B instead of the peep at S13 for later?
11-03 12:16why is everything a mistake??
10-17 20:27alert(1)
10-16 00:04Not in all variations. And even Gote might be not bad in any case.
10-16 00:01I changed the move Q17 to good and not to best.I would not say Q17 is absolutely bad here but it seems a bit slack and gifting for white.I mean black plays an 2 stone wall facing his one stone and after that he has to make a 2 space extension with L17 so that he can not be attacked.Thats why i think its slack.White would kakari here by ocassion. In general to develop the side the kakari stone is facing to(for example if white already played a hoshi or something in the lower rght(maybe in ni ren sei)) or to invade a black position by forcibly threatening blacks hoshi to get a stronger shape after some exchanges eventually even planning to attack adjectend black groups.White ends with a pretty strong shape which even has an eye and all of this in Sente. No matter in which occasion white has to kakari it totaly plays in his hands.Thats why i think its gifting for white.Not to mention that black played the corner here first and the most he achieves is a equal result in Gote. If you play first there should at least be something for you.
10-15 09:58It's fine according to KataGo
10-13 20:30Edited description to add an "A" marker.
10-06 12:55so is this good or isnt it? i'd rather not get random unsourced advice from anonymous people
09-29 18:262 is better?
08-26 16:42Looks like 1 & 2 are marked "good move" just not "ideal move"
08-21 07:02If you check Waltheri's you'll see this move is still being played.
08-03 16:36I am searching a sequence played in high chinese fuseki
07-08 20:01Сan we move p16?
07-08 07:38So little territory got white but black got the bid wall
07-05 14:43Why 4 is a bad move if it is a joseki? Where is a refutation then?
07-02 23:35If white has made joseki moves thus far in this variation and black has been the one to make mistakes, why has white collapsed?
06-22 08:59why are 1 & 2 bad? They are the most common moves on ps waltheri.
06-06 15:19because of symmetry we look at Q16 instead
05-13 19:15привет всем
05-09 12:24fdghjhghjklllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
05-09 12:24jjhujgu
04-27 04:13yeah AI says it's fine
04-27 04:12AI says that omitting the atari can be fine, and that black's best answer is connecting
04-14 18:33Is there a reason why this variation is in here?
04-08 03:51i wish pro players would continue updating this :( many moves that say "ideal" have actually been eliminated in the past few years because it was added such a long time ago...
04-08 03:48can anyone please add more variations that aren't necessarily joseki but are good moves?
03-13 14:08